Oh, come on. Admit it. If you have children (and maybe if you don’t), you have seen Frozen. More than once. Ok, be honest. You know all of the songs by heart, and you probably belt them out in your car. Or maybe you’re more of a lip-syncer, like this couple:
I love how the video is titled “Good Looking Parents Sing Disney’s Frozen.” Yes, they’re adorable. Thanks for rubbing it in, YouTube.
So, even if you’re not the good looking Frozen lip-syncing type, you CAN use your kids’ obsession with the movie to their spiritual advantage. As Christian parents, we don’t have to be limited to exclusively Christian content when we look for ways to teach our children about God’s love. And, Frozen offers all kinds of options for us when we want to open up spiritual conversations with our children.
Option One: Dead Parents…Again!
Why is it that the most dangerous job in any animated movie is being someone’s mother? In true kid movie fashion, Anna and Elsa’s parents spend about five minutes showing us how awesome they are, and then they die in a terrible disaster at sea, never to be seen or heard from again. Their demise gives us opportunity to talk to our kids about death. Here are the types of questions we could ask:
What do you think happens when people die?
What do you think Heaven is like?
How do we get to Heaven?
We can listen to their answers thoughtfully, and show them what the Bible says about Heaven and believing in Jesus. Even if we do more listening than talking (depending on the ages of our children), this offers a great chance to see how much our little ones know and understand about salvation.
Option Two: Real Love (the Fixer-Upper Version)
Throughout the movie we see Anna begin to depend more and more on good ole Kristoph, and he endears himself to us and to her, despite his apparent hygiene issues. Olaf even describes what real love is when he talks about Kristoph late in the movie, saying that love is “putting someone else before yourself.” This is a great opportunity to talk to our kids about what it looks like to show love to others.
Here are some good questions to ask:
Why do you think Kristoff left Anna at the castle with Hans when he didn’t want to?
Why do you think he told Anna not to worry about his ice business, even though it was a real problem for him?
What are some ways that we can put someone else before ourselves?
What are some ways we can show real love to each other?
This conversation can easily be tailored to all kinds of situations that your family may be dealing with, from girl drama at school, to marriage issues, to taking care not to exclude kids who don’t have many friends. We can look at the love chapter and talk about how we can do a better job in our family of loving each other with the kind of love God calls us to. And, we can tackle the ever-difficult topic of loving our enemies.
Option Three: Real Love (the Sisters Before Misters Version)
One of my favorite things about the movie is the fact that it isn’t romantic love that saves the day, but love between two sisters. Through the entire movie we see Elsa and Anna making sacrifices for each other, putting each others’ needs ahead of their own. Elsa stays locked away and lonely for her entire life for fear of hurting Anna again. Anna refuses to give up on her sister, despite the fact that she has no idea for all those years why Elsa will have nothing to do with her. And, of course, in the ultimate act of true love, we see Anna sacrifice her own life to save her sister.
These plot elements are perfect for talking about two types of sacrificial love. One is the love that we should have for one another. We can piggy-back this conversation with the talk about Kristoff and Anna. Of course, this would be a good moment to teach our kids John 15:13: Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. We can talk to our children about the importance of loyalty in friendship, and loving others, even annoying siblings, with a love that is deep and real. We can discuss how real love sometimes requires real action, like standing up for someone.
Here are some good questions to ask:
Why do you think Anna stood between Else and Hans?
Why do you think the Bible says we should love our friends with that kind of love?
What are some specific actions we can take to show love to our friends at school?
What can we do when it is difficult to love someone?
The other type of sacrificial love that we can talk about is the love of Jesus Christ. We can point out to the children that, like Anna put herself between Elsa and Hans, Jesus put himself between us and God. We can teach them why we need a Savior and explain how much more Jesus endured than just death on a cross. Of course, the analogy is not perfect, but we can use it as a great jumping off place to talk to our kids about Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.
Here are some questions we could ask:
We need Jesus to rescue us. Do you know why?
Why do you think Jesus would die for us?
Our hearts aren’t frozen, but what in our hearts can be changed by Jesus’ love?
And, once we have talked about these things and the kids run off to play while we go about our day (while singing the songs, of course), we can pray that something in our conversation brought about a bit of tenderness in their hearts toward the incredible news of the gospel. And, once we have opened up the topic, we may be surprised how the kids will begin to be reminded of the gospel in other unlikely places.
Then, my friends, we are beginning to instill a Christian worldview in our kids. Before long, they will be seeing lots of things through the lens of the great love story of Jesus Christ.
I call that a successful day of parenting. And, if you happen to end up becoming a good looking couple lip-syncing Frozen songs on YouTube in the process, good for you. If not, well, there’s always the shower. Don’t be bitter about those good looking parents, though. Just let it go.
I cannot tell you both how sorry I am to see this from you Melissa and that I feel I must do this in public.
I’m being quite serious. I have a knot in my stomach right now. Not anger. Terrible grief. 🙁 http://tiribulus.net/wordpress/?p=277 NOBODY is safe. You are someone I could never have seen this coming from. I just don’t know anymore. 🙁
Greg, I’m very sorry to have disappointed you! But, I think that it is important to teach our kids to see everything through the lens of the gospel. So, if when they see a kitten they are reminded of Christ or when they see an animated movie they are reminded of Christ, I will be pleased that I am teaching them to think of Him at all times. It’s really no different than seeing my children in the backyard and being reminded of the truths of God’s word. I understand your position on this, and I appreciate your opinion. Thanks for reading.
Are you at all interested in having a levelheaded and gracious discussion about the principles involved here? I’ll make you two promises. Number one, I do NOT want to be at odds with you. There is much magnificent good being proclaimed on this blog. I’ll be nice. You have my word.
Number two. I have spent now dozens of hours on this very topic and ones related to it. IF you are interested, I believe with all my heart I will make an absolutely unassailable airtight biblical case that you and Angie have here applied truly scriptural AND reformed principles in an unfortunately anti-scriptural and very “GREY” manner. Yes, I meant that exactly as I said it.
What IF that’s true? What IF you are actually gravely misrepresenting God and His word to your children in an honest attempt to train them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? Is that possible? What do you have to lose by engaging in a no pressure unhurried discussion in that regard?
I do not want a vitriolic shouting match. I will listen and carefully consider every word you say to me with both of us committed to the confession’s view of SCRIPTURE At least I hope so.
Please Melissa. 🙁 I’m pleading with you as your brother whose only motivation is to see God and His word exalted and glorified.
Greg, I honestly feel like your view is made very clear in the link you provided, especially with all of the comments in which you further present your points. I really would rather not do that here. But, I appreciate your sincerity, and even though you feel that I am an adversary, I think you are wrong about that. Believe me, I know how you feel about it. And, anyone who has any question can follow your link and learn all about it. Blessings to you in your continued battles.
I loved this Melissa and I disagree with you Tiribulus. As a children’s minister it is so important to bring a Christian worldview into the hearts of our children. As a mother I try hard to teach my children how important it is to turn their conversations toward Christ. I’m constantly telling them that if you can learn to use everyday objects to share the amazing grace of the gospel, you will never be without an opportunity to share Christ with the lost. This is an excellent example. I have used this movie to help my older children who are Christians learn how to share Christ and his sacrifice with their friends. I see no difference in using a movie to do that than using colors, beads, or a gospel tract.
Thanks, Angie! I agree!
I am new to your blog. I only recently saw Frozen for the first time (gasp!) and have been having discussions about it with several friends, including my adult son who made me watch it. I am a longtime non-fan of Disney because of how they portray women (strong/independent, male-belittling, not to mention the body images), children (powerful, smarter than adults/authority), and men (shallow, chauvinistic, evil, bumbling). Disney did not disappoint once again, with a small nod to Kristoff’s character! More importantly, I am concerned about the worldview that is being driven into the minds of our kids, especially girls (and their parents) by belting out the lyrics of these songs that are so catchy and seem to be on a continuous loop in many households. Tribulus makes some really good points in his blog.
Leslie, I’m so glad you found my blog! Your points are well taken. Thanks for taking the time to join the conversation!
I have seen this movie. It is a beautifully, masterfully crafted, funny and entertaining Satanic pedo propaganda piece. It is festooned with lessons on why the Godless people who would produce and market such a thing to a dying world are so in need of the very sacrifice that this film so flagrantly denies. Apart from the crystal clear modern feminism that you have noted, it is also filled with occultism, witchcraft and self actualization.
Not to mention plain old fashioned flesh feeding revenge as the GIRL punches out the MAN in direct opposition to Jesus command to love our enemies, pray for them that spitefully use us and to turn the other cheek. What fantastic Christian messages this bright colorful, visual extravaganza pounds into the Spirits of the children on it’s own. To say nothing of US stamping our approval on it by telling them all the allegedly good things it has to teach them.
Melissa is a strong and committed woman of God whose wisdom I have lauded before those who care what I say. THIS is a monstrous blunder that I simply must believe she is ultimately better than. I love her and pray for her and her family. I actually really do. I don’t just say stuff like that because it sounds good.
Greg, I appreciate your passion for truth. But, your message is sometimes lost in the harsh way that you deliver it.
Right on Melissa, and Tiribulus, I think you might need to broaden your understanding of what Melissa is promoting here. I think it is our job as parents/Sunday school teachers/friends to little ones to point out the gospel in everything – yes, everything. Let me explain.
Should Frozen be brought into the Sunday school classroom to teach the gospel to children? Absolutely not. This is an area that should be reserved for teaching from only one source – the Bible. If a child brings up a comparison from Frozen, Ninja Turtles, Superman, secular music, books, etc., can the Sunday school teacher talk to that particular child about that comparison? Absolutely. It is part of their little brains trying to comprehend something that is still developing and I believe that God uses these comparisons to reveal Himself and aspects of His character to little ones. Therefore, it is necessary for the Sunday school teacher to build on the comparison but bring it back to Christ. God redeems sinful human art. It’s a beautiful thing.
Should parents substitute Frozen for family devotional time because it has a good message? Again, absolutely not! If parents feel that the secular movie is the best way to present the gospel to their children, the parents are wrong. Since I know Melissa personally, I know that their family was not using Frozen as a family devotional time with the kids. It can lead to an enhanced understanding in family devotional time since children can bring up comparisons and sometimes even the parents. Again, God can redeem this art.
One of the beautiful things that I can envision from having a conversation as Melissa suggests with your children is this – imagine what they will say to their friends at school. You have talked with your child about how Anna and Elsa’s love is a beautiful thing because they sacrificed for each other. You then talk to your child about how we are to love others like this. You then talk to your child about how Jesus did this for us. Your child goes to school and is talking with friends on the playground. One child asks about everyone’s favorite part of the movie. Your child is saying that his/her favorite part of the movie is Anna sacrificing her life for her sister. Your child then says it is their favorite part because that is what Jesus did for us and starts a spiritual conversation with his/her friends. God can most definitely use this for His glory! God has been using secular literature and art forms for this purpose for centuries! We have to remember that God gave the artists that created this work their talents. Even if they do not intend to use their talents for His glory, He can still redeem it. Again, it’s a beautiful thing.
Everything that our children experience and encounter should lead to a gospel conversation – good, bad, and especially downright ugly. Yes, we should shelter our children from the ugly, but they will encounter it and it is our job to put it in a proper Christian perspective. Frozen is good. Not as good as, or even a substitute for the Bible, but it’s good. Of course we should have these conversations with our children to form a proper worldview all while not substituting the secular for the spiritual in contexts that should be reserved for the spiritual – church teaching time and family devotional time.
Ok Melissa 🙂 My sensibilities are different than yours. I’m giving a valiant effort at being gentle in your house. I very much more enjoyed defending you. I’m sure you know and believe that.
Cyndia says: “God redeems sinful human art.”
Show me this in the bible the way it is here being declared please. Chapter and verse and preferably with a historical precedent. I dealt with the exact same high sounding human wisdom over and over again HERE
I am willing to have this very calm and substantive discussion with you if Melissa will allow it. She doesn’t need another blood bath on her blog.
Months and months now I have begged I don’t know how many people to show me just ONE example of God teaching positive Gospel truth to His church using pagan teachers. EVER. And ESPECIALLY to our children. Just one will do. Cyndia, your comments could be copied and pasted from literally hundreds I’ve already read. Forgive my apparent arrogance and I really don’t mean to be harsh, but I haven’t heard a new argument in this arena in forever. You unfortunately bring nothing new. As soon as somebody shows me a biblical example of witchcraft, occultism, and humanism being pointed to by God or any of His servants for the church’s children’s edification, we’ll be talking. I’ll be waiting. (Acts 17 is your best bet btw. That’s what everybody else uses anyway)
I can give one big example when God redeemed human art. Nebuchadnezzar built what I am positive was a masterful, artistic representation in the form of a statue. Was his building of the statue sinful? Absolutely. Was his purpose sinful? Absolutely. Did God redeem the building of the statue? Absolutely. God used the faithfulness of His servants in their response to the art and purpose of the art to bring glory to Him. I also think of Paul preaching at the monument to the unknown God. Herod’s temple is another example I can think of off the top of my head. Just thought of another – the same gold used to make the golden calf was likely melted down and then used to create the artifacts in the tabernacle that pointed the children of Israel to Christ. We know the children of Israel received the gold and silver from the Egyptians on their way out of town and we can be almost certain that the gold and silver was crafted into images by secular artisans not intending to bring glory to God but God redeemed it. The talents of unbelievers can bring God glory even when that is not the intent of the artist. All humans are created in the image of God so we can learn about God by viewing all humans and their God-given talents through this lens. It should encourage us that we have a multi-faceted God who communicates His uniqueness through the uniqueness seen in all men while at the same time saddening us because the talents are not used for His glory.
Jesus have us a great example of how to take a common experience that humans share and use it to teach a lesson when He spoke about the tower falling and killing 18 people. He took something that happened that His audience would know about and used it to communicate a truth about God.
I know I did not respond as you asked with scripture references but these instances should not be hard to find. I just think we put God in a box and limit His ability to communicate if we see absolutely no value in non-Christian works. Obviously there are problems with Frozen because it is not grounded in truth, but it is easy for parents to redeem this work for God’s glory. All teaching has to be measured by God’s word and all events have to be categorized by God’s word which is why this movie can be used to continue developing the Christian worldview in children.
Let me also add that if you feel convicted not to expose your family to films like this, I applaud you for sticking with your conviction. We just have to be gracious in our world to not hold all Christians to the same convictions since Paul makes it clear in Romans that we can have different convictions. I think enjoyment of secular literature is not forbidden in the scriptures although we should not use it to justify sin or accept sin in others and we have to make sure we are being discerning in what we expose ourselves to. We should all use scripture as our own plumb line, but let the Holy Spirit convict others in most situations.
Seems to me like someone is trying to ride the coat tails of your popularity.
🙂 Jim, if you’re talking about Tiribulus, he is sincere, I think. He is very serious and works hard to try and oppose bad thinking. I can appreciate that, I just don’t happen to agree with him this time. Thanks for the comment, though!
Melissa, I can honestly say that I have not watched Frozen, so I have no idea about the movie at all. This is the first I’ve even read about it. (I would say “thanks for the spoiler alert” but I probably won’t watch it any time soon.)
I do want to commend you for teaching parents how to be Godly parents as well as evangelistic in their homes. If we as parents and for me now, grandparents, do not use every day events and subjects to teach about God then we miss a lot of opportunities. We are somewhat teaching that God is separate from our daily lives and can only be addressed in certain compartments.
Thanks again. I am an avid reader of this blog!
Oops, sorry Brad! I probably should’ve put a warning up! 🙂 Thanks so much for your comment and for your continued encouragement!!
You’re welcome. No prob on the spoiler, really! 🙂
Fairy tales originated from stories told by parents and grandparents long ago. They were warnings–don’t run off into the woods, beware of the wolves, etc. That was a real threat. I read to my children. I read fairy tales. And more importantly we spend every day in the Word. We pray together. I have three daughters. And I am very aware of the message of Disney. I can flip it on it’s head, though. I can use these movies and fairy tales to show them Truth.
Here’s an example: Snow White had a beautiful spirit, yet no discernment. She trusted too much. Who should we trust to lead us? What should we be praying for in our lives?
We live in a world that will shove it’s view in the face of our children every chance it gets. I want my girls to be able to apply the Truth of the Bible and see what is true, pure and worthwhile. I refuse to cower. I will not do it. Christ teaches us to be bold. Part of that boldness is saying “Listen, world. I get what you are saying. These things are lies…and these things are truth.”
In other news, sometimes a children’s movie is just that–a silly children’s movie with a sweet message. There is an extreme side to everything. We must be careful about giving the devil more press.
Thank you for this comment, 3girlzmum!
3girlzmum: “In other news, sometimes a children’s movie is just that–a silly children’s movie with a sweet message.”
🙂 I just cannot leave this. Melissa. Do you realize how this collides head on with Romans 1, Augustine (He’s a longer story), Calvin’s institutes, the first several chapters of the confession of 1646 and the whole Westminster covenant worldview? There is no such thing in all the vast cosmos as a merely silly and morally neutral ANYthing. I use the first grade equation of 2+2=4 all the time against frighteningly capable and highly educated atheists with great effect.
The very GREY that you so eloquently and soundly decry in your last article is the direct descendant of this kind of unwitting autonomous thinking. That is NOT harsh for God’s sake. It’s the truth. I’m not beating up on this nice lady. OR YOU. Reformed orthodoxy is far more than the doctrines of Grace. It’s a God centered worldview and the only one with the weaponry to combat the things you righteously denounce on this blog. How are we gonna tell God that any part of His creation can exist with no moral reference to His covenants? It’s just neutrally silly and sweet? I am telling you in a soft emphatic voice. We used to know better than this.
First, I’m reluctant to be in a discussion with you as you suggested because of the harshness and arrogance you exude through your words. Not only do I not have the time and energy for the conflict, I honestly don’t even know you. You state how right you are and how you will convince me of such. However, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You have advocated constantly for following only scripture. Then, you bring in Augustine and Calvin? You can’t have it both ways. Either only Scripture or there is value in other works. If I cannot find value in secular art, secular movies, secular writing and the like, then you should also exclude commentaries, any religious works written by mere men that are not considered God breathed scripture.
I have been following this conversation with great interest this morning.
I saw about the last 2/3 of this movie with my grand kids back in December. I understand why they like it so much. However, I too have concerns about the messages that our kids may be learning from it.
There is one particular aspect of this Disney film as well as many of the other Disney movies that I would like to mention in particular this a.m. That is the emphasis given to supernatural powers of some sort that is so often seen in these movies.
I know it is often thought of as “just make believe”. However, as Christians we know that there are only two sources of supernatural power: God and the demonic realm. In our life time there has been a huge increase of interest in the occult. It is not “just make believe” out there. It is a very real thing that is being practiced by many.
I can’t help but ask why we don’t question if it is a good thing to be exposing our children to the supernatural that isn’t from the Lord in a way that makes it seem normal and like something that can be used for the good? Are we unintentionally desensitizing our children to the dangers of the occult? Are we making it seem enticing and normal to them? If that is the case, we are doing our children a huge disservice.
Thanks for joining in, Cheryl!
Cyndia you have not given me a single example of what I asked for and your “greyness” is not biblical either. BUT, alas I must go for now. Depending on how things go today. I may or may not answer. With all due respect I know the type. No amount of exegetical/expositional/historical evidence I can bring will make a bit of difference. I’ve just seen it too many times. “It’s all different for you and me and somebody else.” The hook of false liberty is set deep.
I am simply not capable of a nicer way of saying that. If it sounds harsh, I’m sorry.
I disagree. She did give you examples. They are straight from the Bible. This comment does not even state why you think these are not examples. Leaving a conversation, insulting the people as you leave, that is cowardly and destroys your argument. You look like you lost and can’t handle it gracefully so you attack and run. Consider that next time you get into a discussion on matters as this. If you want to be taken seriously, and I think you do, then act more mature. Harsh words and insults do not portray Jesus well. You asked for my time in a discussion to change my beliefs. As a brother I ask you to change how you present your beliefs so someone might be willing to listen. I also ask for you to open your heart to the thought that MAYBE you are wrong too. What if You are?
He’s right. I didn’t give a single example. I gave 3-5 depending on how you count it! I kid, I kid 😉
• 3 verses for you Tiribulus :
1.) “I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” – 1 Corinthians 9:19
2.) To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. – Titus 1:15
3.) Paul used pagan gods with the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers to tell the Gospel in Acts 17:22-32.
… So, was Paul wrong to use a “worldly, un-godly” example to connect people with their current reality to the truth of God’s grace and mercy? Seems like he took a little “liberty” to create an analogy.
There are more. Chew on these for a while…
Also, curious as to when Matthew 18 biblical discipline happened here before taking it public. Disheartening.
By the way, Melissa:
– love “Your Mom Has A Blog”. Great content – thanks for sharing!
Have a blessed day everyone!
PS. The heart of John 13:35 “By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another” seems to be missing from part of this conversation.
Thanks for your kind words about my blog, Curtis!
Angie says: “First, I’m reluctant to be in a discussion with you as you suggested because of the harshness and arrogance you exude through your words. Not only do I not have the time and energy for the conflict, I honestly don’t even know you.”
I was talking to Melissa. Sorry for the misunderstanding. If you don’t have time that’s fine.
Angie says: “You state how right you are and how you will convince me of such.
Again, I was talking to Melissa. I have confidence in her conscience AND I happen to know some of the standards she’s told me she’s committed to. All I know about you is what you’ve said here which is a digitally perfect copy of at least a hundred other people I’ve bumped into in the last several months. What I claimed was that I would make an airtight case. I am and will. Your or anybody else’s being convinced is not up to me.
Angie says: “However, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You have advocated constantly for following only scripture. Then, you bring in Augustine and Calvin? You can’t have it both ways. Either only Scripture or there is value in other works.”
Again. I’m talking to Melissa, who I happen to know holds to the EXCEEDINGLY biblical tradition of historic reformed orthodoxy which descends through those channels. That’s what I meant when I said this “Chapter and verse and preferably with a historical precedent”. Historical precedent means interpretive example from church history. Where do we find anybody before 1970 EVER looking to the works of the world this way? Every last syllable I will type here would have been unequivocally held by the men who wrote the doctrinal statements that Melissa embraces. SHE is who I’m concerned about. The view she is espousing was unknown in the church tradition she claims. Reformed Baptist tradition is even stricter than the Presbyterians. By a lot sometimes. My views are the long standing ones.
Angie says: “If I cannot find value in secular art, secular movies, secular writing and the like,”
I didn’t say that. I find value in EVERYTHING because EVERYTHING belongs to God. EVERYTHING has been decreed by God and EVERYTHING is governed by His universal and comprehensive providence. I also appreciate the talents and gifts given to ALL men by God’s common grace. What I am commanded to NEVER do is to let them teach me or especially my children. The message of Frozen and it’s music is utterly Satanic and deceptive. I find teaching value in that. The devil doesn’t show up in red scaly skin with a terrifying face, horns and a forked tongue. He comes as an angel of light. A thing of beauty and pleasure. A cute little talking snowman? A funny reindeer? An enormously giving girl who sacrifices her very life to save her magical sister? Catchy songs proclaiming anti-Christian themes. Yes. Those are the things that are the most dangerous. Not the overtly evil and frightening and debauched. Though the church embraces those now too.
Angie says: “then you should also exclude commentaries, any religious works written by mere men that are not considered God breathed scripture.”
No Maam. Those are written by men (and women) of God. I wouldn’t put stock in the “Disney Commentary on Galatians”. The church is SUPPOSED to teach her own. Not let the world do it. That’s what commentaries etc. do.
Angie says: “I disagree. She did give you examples. They are straight from the Bible.”
No she did not. She told me there was pagan art in the bible. I knew that. What I’m asking is where do we find God sending his people to the pagans to learn lessons on life and godliness?
We never find God saying to Israel:
Where do we find that?
Or this from Paul?
I don’t see that either.
Angie says: “This comment does not even state why you think these are not examples.”
Please see above.
Angie says: “Leaving a conversation, insulting the people as you leave, that is cowardly and destroys your argument.”
I haven’t left and I’m not afraid of anybody. NObody.
Angie says: “You look like you lost and can’t handle it gracefully so you attack and run.”
Trust me. This has not EVER nor will it EVER happen. Right now there are people who knwo me seeing this discussion who will tell you. I have run from ANYone. Even once.
Angie says: “Consider that next time you get into a discussion on matters as this.”
Madam, I am presently in several discussions in matters like this including with people sporting numerous degrees and who are international speakers and authors. I’ll send you there if you wish. I have asked these questions and made these arguments so many times I can’t possibly remember anymore.
Angie says: “If you want to be taken seriously, and I think you do, then act more mature. Harsh words and insults do not portray Jesus well.”
Thank you. This is a modern American phenomena. My words are Sesame Street compared to the men that Melissa says she reveres. I have said nothing harsh or insulting. I am unwaveringly confident in my convictions. This was once a virtue that has now been replaced by progressive post modern tolerance that winces whenever a man acts like one. Disney is doing it’s job well. That’s what the lady above was talking about. Soft feminized men. I refuse. Though that doesn’t mean I don’t have to be aware that there are boundaries and DO miss them sometimes. I don’t see that here.
Angie says: “You asked for my time in a discussion to change my beliefs.”
I didn’t ask anything from you. I don’t know you. I was talking to Melissa. That doesn’t mean I refuse to talk to you, as you see, or that I don’t care about you, but this was never about YOU.
Angie says: “As a brother I ask you to change how you present your beliefs so someone might be willing to listen.”
I am not going to become Richard Simmons so you will listen. My job is to be faithful. I carry myself like thousands of men of God have in the past. Both in scripture and in history. Including Jesus Himself. He is a not a hippified flower child. Whoever does or does not listen is in Gods’ hands.
Angie says: “I also ask for you to open your heart to the thought that MAYBE you are wrong too. What if You are?”
I will listen ANYbody about ANYthing, ANYtime. If I’m wrong? It’ll be in that bible and somebody who lived before the last 40 years is gonna know about it.
Cyndia quips: He’s right. I didn’t give a single example. I gave 3-5 depending on how you count it! I kid, I kid” 😀
Ok, that was a good one HAHA!! Very cute 😀 However you did no such thing. The one example you gave even close to matching my criteria, which is the one I said everybody tries, was Acts 17. Assuming Melissa is interested in this discussion, I’ll get to acts 17. In the meantime please consider what I’ve said here to Angie. I do have responsibilities.
If you were not speaking to me, you should not have called me by name in your reply as seen here: “… I believe with all my heart I will make an absolutely unassailable airtight biblical case that you and Angie have here applied truly scriptural AND reformed principles in an unfortunately anti-scriptural and very “GREY” manner. Yes, I meant that exactly as I said it.”
“Madam, I am presently in several discussions in matters like this including with people sporting numerous degrees and who are international speakers and authors.”
Exactly! You are currently in numerous discussions. I sport a couple of degrees also. Not that it matters. So what? Why the need to tell me that? Why not treat me like a human being instead of being condescending. The point of what I said was to consider HOW you are talking to people in these discussions, not WHAT you are saying. Your words are still harsh and insulting. We disagree on this point. You said, ” I have said nothing harsh or insulting.” Yet, in your own words, you acknowledge being harsh here: “Forgive my apparent arrogance and I really don’t mean to be harsh, but I haven’t heard a new argument in this arena in forever. You unfortunately bring nothing new.” In other words, “there is nothing you can say that will be worth my time.” Really? You aren’t interested in a discussion at all. Your entire last comment to Cyndia was rude, arrogant, and insulting. Your words, not mine. I’m sad that you won’t consider that, especially since I’m Not the only one in this discussion that said that, Melissa did too. I know a lot of strong Christian men who can speak, preach, and teach the truth of the gospel without being harsh and insulting. Even if you were right, which I still see no evidence at all for, many would reject your views based on your attitude alone. That is what I asked you to consider. Never did I say “become a hippie flower child” or “Richard Simmons.” I didn’t even ask you to change your belief, just change the way you present it.
However, I will sum up the rest of my argument with you here.
“What I am commanded to NEVER do is to let them teach me or especially my children. The message of Frozen and it’s music is utterly Satanic and deceptive. I find teaching value in that.”
And I posted to soon. Oops.
Lastly, you did not tell us why Cyndia’s examples are not good examples. You gave sarcastic comments on what the Bible does not say. These were not related to the examples given at all, they were your own imaginings. Please take Each example she gave you and explain to me why it is Not an example of God using secular art to point a person to Himself. Once again, the clearer you can be without the insulting tone would be appreciated.
Angie quotes me as saying “What I am commanded to NEVER do is to let them teach me or especially my children. The message of Frozen and it’s music is utterly Satanic and deceptive. I find teaching value in that.”
And then as if to have vanquished her hapless foe, triumphantly exclaims”
To which I now answer simply: They don’t do the teaching Angie. I do.
Just like Acts 17.
You brought up all this personal stuff about me. Cowardly, immature etc LOL! I didn’t do anything like that with you. 🙂 I only brought up lettered opponents and such to disabuse you of the wholly erroneous notion of my somehow being intimidated.
One last thing. You quote me allegedly addressing you. That quote is in a reply TO Melisa that remains on this very page. I began by asking HER to talk. I then go on to say that I would make the case that HER and yourself were in error through a discussion with HER. The pronoun “you” addressing Melissa occurs 11 times in that reply. Your name occurs that once as the only other person who had to that point entered the conversation and you agreed with her. That’s why I included you both as only holding the same position, but I was addressing her. No big deal, but now that that’s outta the way, please feel free to assume me an insufferable jackass so we discuss the topic at hand instead of me please. 😉
Yes! I love it. Some of our best conversations with our son (7) come from daily experiences, even Disney movies. My son says he can’t wait to get to Heaven. I’m not patting myself on the back, just pleased that in some little way he’s already thinking on God and longing for Him somehow. We need all the help we can get as parents in this world today. We are doing everything we can to give our son the foundation he needs to succeed in his faith. I’d like to recommend a brand new book I’ve been reading by Dr. Tony Evans. It’s called “Raising Kingdom Kids: Giving Your Child a Living Faith.” He says, “It’s far easier to SHAPE A CHILD than to REPAIR AN ADULT. Raising kids who recognize and retain their identity as children of the King launches healthy adults who have the capacity to stand strong in their faith.” Equipping and guiding our children starts with us, parents! This is the most solid, thorough, inspirational and affirming parent book you’ll ever read! I love it and HIGHLY recommend it for all parents! http://www.raisingkingdomkids.com
Oh my goodness! I see both sides of this very long discussion. Yes it is satanic but in sharing the gospel you use what people know. What is not satanic in this evil world??? I for one got on this sight to look for ideas to use the frozen theme to share the gospel during trunk or treat. God looks at the heart and motive. Soooo while you are sharing with your teen discuss the satanic parts of the movie. Dugh.